Numerous problems please help :(

[phoenix]

Hi

I'm at a total loss as to what to do with regards to a few companies being negligent and in breech of contract. I'll give a brief run down of the issues, the solutions I've tried and I'd really love some advice I'm so frustrated and upset by this, apologise for it being so long first of all.

2003- our local council ran an initiative to install cavity wall and loft insulation to properties in certain areas, they came out and fitted this, it was the insulation which involved drilling holes in the wall and pumping insulation in (foam I presume). The loft insulation was one layer laid over the beams
(not down the gaps in the beams).

2003-2012 persistent problems with rising damp and a damp smell in the house.

May 2012 - Rust coloured dust found in cupboard - survey revealed a dry rot outbreak in the front and party wall of the property. Personal property was damaged due to the damp levels. The outbreak required new flooring and joists to be fitted and underlay had to be replaced as it had disintegrated from the moisture levels. A damp proof course was also installed in one room as paper was peeling away. The survey of the property revealed the damp levels were caused by inadequate sub floor ventilation due to a blocked air brick, the report stated this was blocked by debris and/or insulation when the cavity wall insulation was installed. The report also stated the outbreak appeared to be concentrated at the party wall and had spread from this point. It is worth noting a few months previous to the discovery of the outbreak the neighbouring property had a similar outbreak which appeared to be caused by the same issue with inadequate ventilation. Their outbreak extended to the aforementioned party wall. I understand from research when dry rot is found preventative action must be taken extending 1 meter from the last point of the outbreak, which would bring it into our property however we were never informed. The houses share timbers in the region of the party wall and it is therefore proposed the rot passed through these timbers into our property. The neighbouring property successfully claimed some of the costs for treatment back despite having no report stating the cause of the outbreak, they had insulation fitted at the same time by the same company presumably to the same standard.

May 2012 to Now - I first spoke to CIGA the cavity wall guarantee company who advised I needed to give the company who installed the insulation a chance to rectify the problem, I called said company and after 3 months managed to get someone to come down. He advised me to write I wanted to make a claim and outline my reasons for this and he left without checking anything. I then heard from a loss adjuster appointed by him, I detailed what had happened, sent copies of the report from the surveyor and pictures (though the surveyor took none of the blocked air brick unfortunately).

They wrote back that the report doesn't state if the air brick was blocked due to insulation or rubble/debris given the age (110 years) of the property. It is my impression when fitting insulation the cavity should be cleared of any debris as this creates a bridge between the two walls therefore what it was blocked with is irrelevant, they admit it was blocked and the insulation company are negligent for not clearing the cavity.

They also state that the outbreak in the neighbouring property was concentrated in another region of the house and did not extend to the party wall, luckily I have paperwork and surveys from their property which I was kindly given by the neighbour which show (from two different companies) that the outbreak did extend to the party wall.

Another point they make is that by the time I reported the claim the dry rot works had been completed. This is due to negligence from the dry rot company who, though they informed me of the cause, did not provide a written report until 7 months after the outbreak. I did inform the cavity wall company at the time however they refused to listen to me, answer my calls or come to my house (they don't have an office so I couldn't go to them) until I had a written report. The loss adjuster claims I did not afford them the opportunity to inspect the property which prejudices their position. As mentioned they wouldn't attend until I had a written report, by this time the work had been carried out, as you can appreciate with dry rot the outbreak spreads rapidly therefore it was imperative we acted ASAP to prevent further spread.

The final point they raise is that the insertion of insulation does not in itself cause high levels of dampness and they believe there is not a link between 'unproven blockages' and the outbreak. They go on to say no proof has been provided that the air brick was blocked solely as a result of negligent insertion of cavity wall insulation. They then basically say they won't pay out, we are at present nearly £5,000 out of pocket and we still have potentially faulty insulation.

So I spoke to CIGA again who ignored me and informed me to put my claim in writing which I am composing at present. I spoke to consumer advice who informed me I could speak to a financial ombudsman or take them to small claims court. The former I tried and was advised because I did not appoint the loss adjusters I could not claim against them. They did tell me I could use their service if I had issue with my own insurance company but the damage was not covered in the policy as they don't cover gradual problems only those by say a burst pipe, as the damp levels rose over a period of time we were not covered. I then tried citizens advice and was informed they didn't deal with that kind of claim. I spoke to community legal advice who advised speaking to Shelter or to the CAB, I rang shelter who cant help as it is a private property however they suggested since the council appointed the cavity wall company to speak to the local councillor and they might be able to help. I've done that today I'm waiting on a call back but don't expect a lot.

I'd like to know where I stand with these companies, if anyone knows if trading standards can assist they are my last hope. I don't fully understand how the company paid out without proof on the neighbouring property but won't for my case which has a surveyors report proving negligence. I also don't think we should be hugely out of pocket for something that was not our fault. I'm not sure I can go against the loss adjusters, if anyone knows I'd be very grateful. I just want to replace my damaged items and get the costs back for the work but I feel like I'm fighting a sea of resistance and I've got no idea where to go from here.

 

[phoenix]

nearly 500 views, someone must know something?

Well a little update I spoke to trading standards and they basically said no one will touch the claim because its over 5 years since the work was done. Also because it was free as part of a council initiative we don't have a contract with the company therefore we can't say they didn't fulfil their contract because there was one and no money changed hands. So basically the council have employed rogue traders who have screwed me and my neighbour over and because we didnt pay them we cant complain!!! I'm furious short of suing the council I've got no idea where to go, lawyers wont help because the statute is up and because we have no contract

I'm having problems with the dry rot company now the plastering they did has literally fallen off the wall, he is in breech of contract since he was meant to check the work because he got other people in to do it and hes never been (its been a year now) and he was meant to come on friday to look at the plastering but as usual he's rang an hour before with an excuse, thats 6 times its happened now!! I suppose since we paid him I can get trading standards involved if he doesnt come back but as far as the £5000 goes we're never getting it back. Does anyone have any ideas we're literally broke and now we have wet rot in the kitchen

 

[Witch consumer]

Apologies, we deal mainly with consumer issues but we do have a mod who specialises in building work, I'll see if I can get you some specialist advice.

 

[trickygj]

I have not been too active on forum at the moment due to many other commitments but I will have a read of this problem and respond later hopefully.

 

[phoenix]

Thank you both so much

 

[ALewis]

That's why I kept out too.
But regardless of money changing over, they may have breached their duty of care owed to you under the Law of Negligence.
But I'm going to leave this one for Trickygj.

 

[trickygj]

2003-2012 persistent problems with rising damp and a damp smell in the house.

Where was the rising damp? Was this diagnosed as such in 2003? When was the first time it was diagnosed?

A damp proof course was also installed in one room as paper was peeling away? The survey of the property revealed the damp levels were caused by inadequate sub floor ventilation due to a blocked air brick, the report stated this was blocked by debris and/or insulation when the cavity wall insulation was installed.

If the damp was caused by inadequate ventilation due to blocked air bricks, why was a damp proof course installed? This is not the correct treatment.

It is worth noting a few months previous to the discovery of the outbreak the neighbouring property had a similar outbreak which appeared to be caused by the same issue with inadequate ventilation. Their outbreak extended to the aforementioned party wall.

Did the neighbours inform you of this at the time or did the treatment company advise the neighbours to inform you? There would be a duty of care on them to do this.

It is my impression when fitting insulation the cavity should be cleared of any debris as this creates a bridge between the two walls therefore what it was blocked with is irrelevant, they admit it was blocked and the insulation company are negligent for not clearing the cavity.

The point here is if it was blocked with insulation then you could show the insulation caused the blockage at the point it was installed. If it was debris then at what point did the debris block the vent. It could have happened any at any point between 2003 and 2012?

They also state that the outbreak in the neighbouring property was concentrated in another region of the house and did not extend to the party wall, luckily I have paperwork and surveys from their property which I was kindly given by the neighbour which show (from two different companies) that the outbreak did extend to the party wall

If this is the case then it looks like you might have a claim against someone if only your neighbour.

Another point they make is that by the time I reported the claim the dry rot works had been completed. This is due to negligence from the dry rot company who, though they informed me of the cause, did not provide a written report until 7 months after the outbreak

I cannot understand how a company cannot provide a report BEFORE they undertake works particularly in cases of dry rot. You say this is negligence but I am not sure how you come to this conclusion? On what basis did you contract with the company if you had no report?

I did inform the cavity wall company at the time however they refused to listen to me, answer my calls or come to my house (they don't have an office so I couldn't go to them) until I had a written report. The loss adjuster claims I did not afford them the opportunity to inspect the property which prejudices their position. As mentioned they wouldn't attend until I had a written report, by this time the work had been carried out, as you can appreciate with dry rot the outbreak spreads rapidly therefore it was imperative we acted ASAP to prevent further spread.

The procedure is to inform the party you are claiming against before you have the works undertaken. It is as you say important to act quickly where dry rot is concerned but a matter of weeks even would not be too detrimental in this case. Loss Adjusters are put in place to try to mitigate the losses for their client and will wherever possible deny liability. They should have been given the opportunity to inspect the damage but failing that you should have taken photographs etc to show very clearly the damage etc.

This story raises as many questions as answers but the upshot to me seems to be that if there is a claim to be had it would be against your neighbours for not informing you of the initial outbreak.

I think you are fighting a lost cause with the breach of contract and negligence claims against the insulation company but if you have a contract with the company that did the work for them to come back at certain times then they must. This seems a strange contract to have in place but I would have to see it to advise any better.

I think you have perhaps been badly advised from the onset and approached the situation in the wrong way and have now made it very difficult to form a claim against whoever.

Sorry, not the answer you want I know.

 

[phoenix]

Firstly thank you for your detailed reply. The rising damp was not diagnosed officially until 2012, we did have problems with the paper peeling off and other people commented they noticed a damp smell in the hallway. Its my parents house but I do the organising for them (obviously not doing very well at the moment) and for whatever reason they didn’t realise it was rising damp or realised and chose not to do anything about it it hasn’t gotten any worse its just stayed the same but the house has only ever had one damp proof course which was done in 1986 in the living room.
________________________________________
Quote:
2003-2012 persistent problems with rising damp and a damp smell in the house.
Where was the rising damp? Was this diagnosed as such in 2003? When was the first time it was diagnosed?
Quote:
A damp proof course was also installed in one room as paper was peeling away? The survey of the property revealed the damp levels were caused by inadequate sub floor ventilation due to a blocked air brick, the report stated this was blocked by debris and/or insulation when the cavity wall insulation was installed.
If the damp was caused by inadequate ventilation due to blocked air bricks, why was a damp proof course installed? This is not the correct treatment.

The survey from the dry rot company said that the damp in the house was caused by the blocked airbricks he did not state a cause for the damp proofing. I have checked all paperwork and I don’t actually have a report or anything from them apart from a schedule or work and a quotation. The schedule of work just details that they will take the skirting off, take the floor out and treat with boron and that they will put 2 airbricks in. Its a standard form and hes just ticked boxes and then put a quote at the bottom. Apart from a sheet with a drawing of the affected areas (no cause), an invoice and a specification for treatment which says what happens with dry rot, wet rot and some general notes I don’t have any report. I noticed from next door the companies they got provided a full report prior to doing the work but we only received their papers a few months after the work was finished and we hassled the man for months to get a report and he only gave us one in December 2012 which is when it details about the airbrick being blocked.

Quote:
It is worth noting a few months previous to the discovery of the outbreak the neighbouring property had a similar outbreak which appeared to be caused by the same issue with inadequate ventilation. Their outbreak extended to the aforementioned party wall.
Did the neighbours inform you of this at the time or did the treatment company advise the neighbours to inform you? There would be a duty of care on them to do this.

No we were not informed of this, I have the documents from 2 different surveyors who carried out a survey in their house which show the dry rot extends to the party wall, we weren’t informed by either company (one of which carried out the dry rot work) and we weren’t informed by our neighbours. On the diagrams the rot goes right to the party wall and under the doorway, it is here where the timbers are shared and a pipe runs under both doorways, they had the timer and plaster in their doorway replaced and we had to have ours replaced later as it was infected in the same place. The houses are mirrored his outbreak started in the bay window and spread across to the passage and doorway, ours started in the passage and doorway and spread across into the living room.

Quote:
It is my impression when fitting insulation the cavity should be cleared of any debris as this creates a bridge between the two walls therefore what it was blocked with is irrelevant, they admit it was blocked and the insulation company are negligent for not clearing the cavity.
The point here is if it was blocked with insulation then you could show the insulation caused the blockage at the point it was installed. If it was debris then at what point did the debris block the vent. It could have happened any at any point between 2003 and 2012?

I would have thought that the debris wouldn’t have really built up that much, the house is a gable and and the chimneys are capped off, though we did do work to the bay window where the only airbrick was for the whole property, the cavity wall insulation was fitted along the gable wall and this has not been touched so if there is rubble in the gable surely it must have been there before the insulation was put in because it cannot pass through the insulation into the small crevice at the bottom. I know when the insulation was done they drilled holes in the bricks 2 brick’s up from the ground and then pumped the insulation in, so I would have thought that if there was debris in the bottom of the bay window, and in the bottom of the cavity in the gable end that it would have had to be there prior to the cavity wall insulation being fitted.

Quote:
They also state that the outbreak in the neighbouring property was concentrated in another region of the house and did not extend to the party wall, luckily I have paperwork and surveys from their property which I was kindly given by the neighbour which show (from two different companies) that the outbreak did extend to the party wall
If this is the case then it looks like you might have a claim against someone if only your neighbour.

Again I don’t really want to claim against the neighbour hes a nice man and it would make things awkward living next to someone whilst suing them, I know hes having issues at work and might be getting laid off so thats not really going to be viable, i think the suggestion about liability on the part of the people who carried out the remedial works will be a better option though how I go about that I don’t know.

Quote:
Another point they make is that by the time I reported the claim the dry rot works had been completed. This is due to negligence from the dry rot company who, though they informed me of the cause, did not provide a written report until 7 months after the outbreak
I cannot understand how a company cannot provide a report BEFORE they undertake works particularly in cases of dry rot. You say this is negligence but I am not sure how you come to this conclusion? On what basis did you contract with the company if you had no report?Quote:

 

[phoenix]

Apologies I had to post it in 2 seperate posts ran out of room.

See my second point about the paperwork, I didn’t receive a report I was told I would receive one but as mentioned that probably wouldn’t have happened if I hadn’t chased him up, threatened legal action etc.

I did inform the cavity wall company at the time however they refused to listen to me, answer my calls or come to my house (they don't have an office so I couldn't go to them) until I had a written report. The loss adjuster claims I did not afford them the opportunity to inspect the property which prejudices their position. As mentioned they wouldn't attend until I had a written report, by this time the work had been carried out, as you can appreciate with dry rot the outbreak spreads rapidly therefore it was imperative we acted ASAP to prevent further spread.
The procedure is to inform the party you are claiming against before you have the works undertaken. It is as you say important to act quickly where dry rot is concerned but a matter of weeks even would not be too detrimental in this case. Loss Adjusters are put in place to try to mitigate the losses for their client and will wherever possible deny liability. They should have been given the opportunity to inspect the damage but failing that you should have taken photographs etc to show very clearly the damage etc.

With regards to this, the dry rot company who carried out the work advised us we needed to act quickly, when we called him he came down the day after (it was a Thursday) and he arranged for work to start on the Monday, he said we needed to get it done as even a week could make the difference. At the time we didn’t know the airbrick was blocked he came down and did a small survey and informed us at this point that he believed this to be the case. He also contained within his report that he believed the outbreak did come from next door and he also writes that they had a similar outbreak caused by the same issue which extended to the party wall. He then said he would take photographs and document everything from start to finish and that we would receive a report from him with everything in which didn’t come until 7 months later. Once I found out the cause was from the airbrick I rang the cavity wall company, and I continued to do so leaving message and calling almost daily and nobody ever returned my calls, once they did the work had been nearly finished and they then said they would not come out until I had it in writing that it was their fault, I was still chasing the surveyor for the report and as mentioned I received it in December of 2012 and I have an invoice stating that the reports was not received by us until then. I have all the emails and texts we sent him to ask for the report, I even had a solicitor draft an email to him and he didn’t respond to that either he said ‘ill get you it next week’ and then that week rolled by and I didn’t receive anything then he said he would come down with it and he didn’t turn up this went on for the whole 7 months until I got the report in the December after managing to get an alternative number for him when he rang to cancel, it turned out to be his wife (admin in his company) and I hassled her and she hassled him and it finally got sorted.

The breech of contract is not against the cavity wall company but against the dry rot company who did not check the work as stated they would in the contract they eventually gave us, they have been today and have put a damp meter on the wall so I assume this is all they do to check dry rot treatment has worked therefore the breech is no longer an issue. The negligence is against the cavity wall company for not clearing the cavity prior to installing the insulation, as mentioned apparently we don’t have a contract with the cavity wall company they were contracted by the council to carry out work on the properties in the neighbourhood we simply have a guarantee from them from CIGA.


Whilst I am aware it has not been handled correctly I’m not proficient in these matters and I did attempt to speak to the cavity wall company but as the dry rot company were negligent and did not get me a written report I could not get them to come down, the company who carried out the works next door were also at fault for not informing us.

If you need anything else from me please let me know I really do appreciate the help and advice. I have scans of every piece of paperwork I have from them (not that there are many) and diagrams of both our property and the neighbouring property along with 2 surveys from the neighbouring property detailing where the outbreak went from and to.